Qu'est-ce Que J D?
belief/support III

ironcurtainyc:

Qu’est-ce Que J D?: belief/support

rljd:

ironcurtainyc:

rljd:

I don’t believe in marriage, but I support my friends however they want to work their partnership.

I don’t believe in procreation, but I support my friends however they want to develop their families.

I don’t believe in weight loss AND I DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR ATTEMPTED WEIGHT LOSS

SORRY

What if it’s Doctor’s orders? And the doctor in question is a competent and conscientious health professional who actually took tests (e.g., blood tests, Sphygmomanometer, etc.) and determined that you need to lose some weight, and not just a declaration of “you’re fat” after just looking at you?

While I do agree that Fat-phobia is bad, those doctors do exist, you know…

This what-if scenario is incomplete.  ”Need to lose some weight” for what purpose?

Warning: any answer you give, I am going to nitpick into the dirt, because the point I’m trying to make is that “weight” is not health information, and “losing some” is not medicine.

Actually, you do have a point. Let me rephrase it a different way: What if a doctor (a good one) says you have to get healthier, and that is the goal, and losing weight is a by-product of that? 

That’s fine by me!  I’m not saying heavier is better and anything that could cause someone to get smaller or lighter is therefore sinful.  My objections are all about social pressures and normativity.

I mean - to be more than just cursory and belligerent like my original post - it’s also “fine by me” if people have a goal to change their body any way they want, for whatever reason makes sense to them.  I just don’t have any support to offer when it comes to the goal of losing weight because it intrinsically posits the body I live in every day as a nightmare scenario.

I think it’s supremely self-centred for someone who knows fat people (even if they are also fat) to subject them to talk about dieting, weight loss goals, moral qualities of nutrition, and it being better to be thinner and worse to be fat.  The point of my original post was more “don’t make me listen to that” than “don’t do what you want to do.”

Hope that makes more sense now!

I’m fat, and although I’ve been different sizes at different times, my peers started telling me I was fat when I was around eight or nine and that’s all that matters when it comes to being identified. Being fat is not something anyone is allowed to do with total nonchalance in this culture, but if it’s easiest on anyone, it’s easiest on people who have every other type of privilege afforded. It’s easier to be a man and fat, white and fat, masculine and fat, straight-presenting and fat.
Jesse Dangerously interviewed by Anne Thériault for Shameless Magazine's blog about his song “Coming Out Wrong.”
No Shirts, Only Skins

queerandpresentdanger:

looking at pictures of me not taken by me recently and thinking it’s so weird how i look so much different in these pictures than the way i see myself

and i can initially be appalled at the way i look and sometimes a little disgusted and i feel justified in not feeling/being loved/being deserving of love

and i can try and check that body shaming bullshit but it creeps in

but the more i look and really try to see myself it doesn’t feel so bad

had some body politics conversation tonight, and it was cool and everything

but the acts of reclaiming space for your body, body affirming activities, etc, feels so much more complicated for me. almost impossible.

in my daily life i try to show as much of my body as possible, and i view this as acts of resistance, and think about how even last semester i was too uncomfortable to wear a tank top to school and now there’s hardly been a day when i haven’t, and that is progress i suppose

but there is so much that feels too personal, too private, too disgusting and undesirable to subject others to

and it’s fucked up to think of your body as something you subject others to. but i have such little reason to not think of it this way. and it’s fucked up.

i want to love my body. i want everyone to love their body. i want the world to be a body affirming space. mostly i just want it to be possible right now.

but it’s just so fucking complicated.

Holy shit this is me right now times a lot.

Taking my shirt off on stage every night to assert the validity & acceptability of my body.

Daring anyone to be anything other than psyched (for me or for themselves) about it.

Terrified every second, like skydiving.

Last night in New Haven I just never put my shirt back on after the set. All through Crunk Witch and Ceschi & David Ramos I stayed exposed and danced on benches and plunged into the crowd.

I felt very…

…naked.

In Cleveland I took off my shirt to absolute silence for the first time EVER.  It was extremely uncomfortable for me.  I guess doing anything on stage to absolute silence is pretty uncomfortable, but this felt… strange.  Much stranger than any reaction, positive or negative, I’ve ever received.  No reaction is the worst.

The tour hits Brooklyn tonight; we’re playing with Schaffer The Darklord who has deep ties to the burlesque community in that toddling town and last time we share a bill there, not only did my shirtlessness get friendly responses, the homies in People With Teeth disrobed in solidarity and so did some other audience members.  So I feel like it’ll go well tonight.

On the other hand, my last show in BK prior to that one had some dude charge up to me at the merch table all angry and holler “I DIDN’T NEED TO SEE ALL THAT.”

So it could go any old way!  I’ll see you at the Grand Victory - 245 Grand Street.  Make it happen.

Fat Acceptance

amaditalks:

fuckyeahlgbtqlatinxs:

The people who are most shamed and oppressed for being fat are working class people of color and working class white people.  Many of which either live in food deserts in urban areas or live in rural areas where grocery stores may be scarce or difficult to get to if you don’t have a car/ have limited transportation options.

But fat acceptance bloggers and activists seem to always be class privileged white people or class privileged people of color.  Who are young.  Have relatively easy access to grocery stores/ food.  Do not have children.  Are not disabled. Etc.

I feel like the majority of fat acceptance posts I see are pictures of young, fat, able bodied people in bathtubs filled with donuts or pictures of fat white people with pies on their tits or something.

Which is great.

But people talking about fat acceptance and body positivity seem to always be people who have agency over their bodies and what they put in it/ what they do to it and what others do to it.

I want to see more fat acceptance and body positive work that focuses on food justice and accessible healthcare issues.  I want to see the discussion of fatness and bodies be dominated by fat people who do not have great amounts of power and control over their food sources and the food that is realistic for them to be able to buy, prepare, and consume.

I think that there is a huge disconnect between the work that I see most fat acceptance activists doing and the reality of food deserts, poverty, shitty public school lunches, unhealthy fast food, attacks on poor communities that take land to create urban gardens, and the rampant rates of diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and heart disease in working class communities of color.

I’m fucking tired of reading class privileged fat people talk about how they can eat whatever they want, when they want, in whatever quantities they want.  Do yall even understand the kind of privilege you have to be able to say that and live that?  To be able to eat whatever the hell you please whenever the hell you please?

People’s bodies, and what they choose to do with their bodies, should never be policed or shamed.  But will fat acceptance bloggers and body positive bloggers please fucking start recognizing that people of color’s bodies are policed and shamed from the goddamn second we are born?

And on a different note: If you run a body positive blog and regularly post pictures of non-Black people with dreads you are fucking up.  I see that shit all the time. Stop that fuckery.  You are not being body positive if you are posting some fucked up racist cultural appropriation shit.

We need to divorce the discussion of fat positivity in terms of body positivity and self-love in our bodies no matter their size, shape or color (and recognizing the problematic aspects of loving our bodies when we have disabilities and/or illnesses or dysphoric issues) and the political issues of food, food policy, food access and the like. They’re only tangentially related.

And in fact, when we conflate the politics of food and food access with fatness, we’re walking right into the trap of problematizing fat bodies. When we join up a discussion of fat with “food deserts, poverty, shitty public school lunches, unhealthy fast food,” all unquestionable negatives, we’re falling right into the mainstream narrative of “oh, if only those poor fats (and poor fats especially) had access to healthy food, they wouldn’t be so fat.”

NO.

There’s nothing fat accepting or body positive about perpetuating notions that give food choices and/or access primacy in the issue of fatness or suggest that fat folk are fat because of the symptoms and manifestations of systemic oppression, that variance in body size is something solvable or even addressable if only there was more fruit and less fries.

When we take it the step further and bring in a discussion of “rampant rates of diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and heart disease” we are stock centered in the muck of the “fat is unhealthy!” tropes that fat acceptance, especially the HAES-focused model, rejects entirely.

I’m not willing to grant that ground. I’m not willing to have to fight the causation ≠ correlation battle yet again. I’m not willing to fight the fat = unhealthy vs. unhealthy = unhealthy battle again.

Not for my working class community of color, not for any community.

The only way that food access, policy and politics issues interplay with fat issues is if you accept an incrementalist perspective on fat that says “well, fat is okay on a personal level but…”

There are no acceptable “buts” here, though. It is or it isn’t. Which is it?

Fat acceptance says that there is, on this one fundamental issue, one answer to that question. Hint: it’s right there in the name of the ideal.

Mind, I’m not saying that we don’t need to talk about food politics and policy. I’m not saying that by any means. I’m especially not saying that we don’t need to talk about how our national food policy that gives preference to the issues of rural communities, is overly influenced by mega agribiz multinationals like Monsanto and is designed from the top down in order to enrich the rich while spending as little as possible on its actual goals is killing people (and not just in America) in a number of ways.

I’m just saying that fatness isn’t one of those ways.

And I’m saying fat acceptance cannot have this discussion on the terms of the fat hating mainstream which is exactly what this kind of conflation is. I’m saying that fat acceptance and body positivity recognizes that as soon as you start merging a discussion about fatness, especially fatness in communities (which is already a very fraught area to get into) with negative issues of politics and policy, the discussion is already lost.

You want to discuss what it means when a whole community has no easy access to fresh food? So do I. As soon as you say “and that’s why people there are fat” and make it an issue of blame, there’s nothing left to talk about from a fat acceptance perspective.

If you want to talk about how food policy and politics, from federal farm bills down to local zoning laws impact how entire groups of people are able to safely feed themselves and their families, I’m in.

You want to talk about how that is one of many systemic issues that has a negative impact upon health metrics like blood pressure and heart disease, yes, let’s do that.

When you bring body size into it? You’re not only completely disregarding fat acceptance, you’re betraying it.

And none of that has anything to do with whether or not a fat person takes a picture with a piece of pie on their tits. We have to break these issues down, put them in their proper places and recognize when seemingly like topics? Actually aren’t.

And above all else, we must stop problematizing fat bodies (especially poor and/or brown fat bodies) and sacrificing them on the altar of food justice.

Fat acceptance is for every fat body.

Food justice is for every person who eats.

The two are not at odds. The two should be allied causes. But they are not one in the same, and neither can be subsumed or co-opted in the battle for the other.

This response (by Amadi talks) is a sequence of excellent points, made well.  I love it.

redgaia:

They all weigh 150lbs

I like what this infographic achieves in terms of breaking down presumptions about the significance of any given metric, although it would be nice if “they all weigh 150lbs” were in the frame and not something that needs to be pointed out separately.
I was really upset a few weeks ago (when those pseudo-FA maniacs were shredding up my sister for having the wrong feelings about her body) when I started to realize that dress sizes were being used as a very intentional caste system in their conversations.  Larger numbers were de facto more oppressed, and more sympathetic, and more worthy of respect and care and compassion, on a linear scale.
Someone eyeballed the tiny, partial photo of my sister’s face and called her a “size 6.”  It got picked up in subsequent reblogs and mean remarks and long after anyone knew who it was referring to, many people who hadn’t read anything she wrote were still howling about the privilege and fatphobia and shitheadedness of this now-mythical Size 6 Girl of which their lore spoke.
I mean she doesn’t even wear dresses, she builds her own clothes, but even if every body’s shape could be accurately described in detail by a two-digit number called “dress size,” the way they were calling her A size 6 was really telling.  It was central to their bullying.

Dehumanizing the victim makes things simpler. It’s like breathing with a respirator.It eases the conscience of even the most conscious and calculating violator.

That’s how Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy put it in “Language of Violence,” twenty years ago.  The song illustrates how bullies become victims, but could perhaps have used a third verse about how victims become bullies.
When you start telling someone that they are Number 6 to the exclusion of all else, then it is the end of Animal Farm but instead of turning into humans you have turned into the bad guys from The Prisoner.
Anyway yeah dress size is their way of not using BMI, which they are able to recognize as phony, as a hierarchy… by substituting a different phony source of extrapolatable information.
So yeah that’s some things that I think about when I think about what I like about this picture.

redgaia:

They all weigh 150lbs

I like what this infographic achieves in terms of breaking down presumptions about the significance of any given metric, although it would be nice if “they all weigh 150lbs” were in the frame and not something that needs to be pointed out separately.

I was really upset a few weeks ago (when those pseudo-FA maniacs were shredding up my sister for having the wrong feelings about her body) when I started to realize that dress sizes were being used as a very intentional caste system in their conversations.  Larger numbers were de facto more oppressed, and more sympathetic, and more worthy of respect and care and compassion, on a linear scale.

Someone eyeballed the tiny, partial photo of my sister’s face and called her a “size 6.”  It got picked up in subsequent reblogs and mean remarks and long after anyone knew who it was referring to, many people who hadn’t read anything she wrote were still howling about the privilege and fatphobia and shitheadedness of this now-mythical Size 6 Girl of which their lore spoke.

I mean she doesn’t even wear dresses, she builds her own clothes, but even if every body’s shape could be accurately described in detail by a two-digit number called “dress size,” the way they were calling her A size 6 was really telling.  It was central to their bullying.

Dehumanizing the victim makes things simpler. It’s like breathing with a respirator.
It eases the conscience of even the most conscious and calculating violator.

That’s how Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy put it in “Language of Violence,” twenty years ago.  The song illustrates how bullies become victims, but could perhaps have used a third verse about how victims become bullies.

When you start telling someone that they are Number 6 to the exclusion of all else, then it is the end of Animal Farm but instead of turning into humans you have turned into the bad guys from The Prisoner.

Anyway yeah dress size is their way of not using BMI, which they are able to recognize as phony, as a hierarchy… by substituting a different phony source of extrapolatable information.

So yeah that’s some things that I think about when I think about what I like about this picture.

Less hate. Less shame.

I need to disengage from the type of fat activism that seems endemic to Tumblr (and probably other blogging communities), where people who identify as legitimately fat just scream and scream at people they deem to be less fat, or less legitimately fat.

I really need to find a place where I can be part of a movement to be good to everyone at every size and without a lack of regard for how fat bodies are hated on in particular, but where I am also able to pretend people who I would like to count as allies aren’t constantly, viciously out to make people of other body types feel as worthless and despicable as the mainstream would like me and us to feel.

My solution to fat hate and body shaming does not include more hate and shaming.

I am unfollowing a GRIP of motherfuckers.  I used to have to only do that for fat-PHOBIC content.  (Or well I mean lots of *.phobic content but you know, BAD GUYS.)

Lyngay Weighs In
Lynda: I think you hit on something when you asked if it was like obscenity, because I do think it's somewhat subjective and yet there is a certain point where all reasonable people will degree - but it's not a line you can mark on a piece of paper.
me: I mean "obscenity" is tricky because it's like "overweight," it has judgement cooked right into the crust and to identify it is to ratify that judgement to some extent... so I think these "you just know" common sense categories are wholly questionable.
Lynda: I agree! I think it's questionable but at the same time, how do you measure? I haven't figured out the answer.
me: I think it doesn't matter. I think we don't need hard categories to do the work of dismantling toxic anti-body culture.
Lynda: Well, I don't think we need hard lines on any category. But ok... thinking this out... what is the point of talking about thin privilege? We do it to point out to people something they didn't even realize they had and ask them to self-examine, right? So how do you ask someone to examine their privilege if we can't tell them if they have it or not?
Lynda: I really like the stuff you say here, though: http://rljd.tumblr.com/post/21890617761/how-to-tell-if-you-have-thin-privilege I definitely agree about thin and fat being undefined.
me: I'm not always certain that the quickest route to getting someone who experiences privilege to understand it is by informing them of their experience. I think the practise that puts that foremost as a tactic for making them understand is understandable because it feels like giving that person a deserved awakening, but it's also the main way to raise defenses and make sure someone is never open to learning about the privilege that they should know they have.
me: I'm not saying that the best thing to do is coddle, but it's not necessarily a disaster if we don't have the ability to point to a tightly defined category and say EVERYONE IN THIS BOX ENJOYS THIS PRIVILEGE IN THIS WAY.
Lynda: Well, I don't think it's informing someone of their experiences to say, "hey, this is a thing. it affects you".
me: I agree! I do think that's a good way to talk about it, and I think that may even be easier to do when it's acknowledged that the categories are nebulous and shifting, and the effect is gradient and not just all or nothing.
Lynda: true. I think it's easier for people to dismiss it as something that doesn't apply to them that way, though.
Lynda: people deny their white privilege even when it is obvious that they are white. ;)
me: wait... doesn't that mean they can dismiss it anyway, no matter what? or am I misunderstanding you?
Lynda: well, anyone can dismiss anything they don't want to hear. I'm just asking, if it's undefined and nebulous then doesn't that make it easier for someone to say, "that doesn't apply to me"?
me: oh! yeah you're probably right that it's easier to say that, especially at first. but I think it provides more of an opportunity, over time, for a small awareness of SOME maybe little, undeniable thing to wiggle into their consciousness that they can be like "oh okay, I guess THAT is a thing," and those things can blossom? eventually?
Lynda: Yeah, I hope. I also just realized. I have totally different opinions on this when it comes to thin privilege and "fat" people's attitudes towards "thin" people than when I do when it comes to similar situations involving race. I have to think on this.
me: I was thinking about that (not YOUR different opinions, ha, just the points of comparison) just now... like light-skinned privilege in Black communities being gradient, and a symptom of white supremacy, but not making a hill of difference to the oppressive white institution.
Lynda: well I would type more but I'm down to one hand and a foot blocking the screen because there's a 5-year-old who has decided she needs All The Attention...
Young K Weighs In
Young K: The problem with privilege is the OPPRESSION that occurs, and people that wear a size 10 or whatever still face that oppression
Young K: Their boyfriends/moms/co-workers still judge them and their food and don't want them to step out of line and and people still tell them they are too fat
me: Right! People are arguing that the experience of BEING above a certain (undisclosed) size - which IS an experience and DOES have things that go with it that are hard - is the beginning and end of it all.
me: It's like non-heteronormative couples who want to get married. Like it IS unjust that they are excluded from the oppressive institution into which they would like to be welcomed, but it's their oppressive mainstream values that turns that inclusion into a political end goal.
Young K: Like does this person think beautiful women don't suffer from misogyny?
me: She doesn't care.
me: She cares about HER experience.
Young K: Fat-hate really hurts fat people. It also hurts people that aren't quite fat, aren't fat YET, or aren't fat anymore. These people have some privileges, but they also are under constant threat about what could happen to them if they become fat. They are being policed externally and maybe internally to watch themselves because they could become fat at any moment. And even if they are not too fat to sit at a desk, they are being told every day that they are too fat to get married (lose 10 pounds first!), too fat to do it in that position, too fast to do it with the lights on, too fat to wear a bikini, etc.
Young K: The fat-positive movement should be concerned with helping end ALL kinds of fat-hate. This will be the best thing for women and people off all sizes, including those experiencing fat oppression and those that get thin privilege. Capitalism & misogyny & fat-hate work together to make us all feel shame about our bodies, and we should do our best to eradicate that.
me: I am posting the hell out of this chat.
[jerk nonsense amplified]

holagordita:

if you are a size 10 and below then you’re just NOT FAT, no matter what your body dysmorphia may say believe me i’ve been there (albeit very briefly)

honestly i don’t CARE if you ~feel fat~ if you are not actually fat. (i care if you have an eating disorder, but i’m not going to let you be an appropriative shit, either.) i am just fresh out of fucks to give for a size six person who feels sad because they’re surrounded by a bunch of size two people. go cry me a river in an h&m where both you and your size two friends can find clothes to fit you easily, on every single fucking rack. 

if you’re thin, you have thin privilege. it’s cut and fucking dry. 

tl;dr shut up and let fatties have their space, SANS YOU

How the fuck did you get to be president of the fat club?  I don’t know anyone who voted for you!  Please stop hold off on making any more policy decisions until your credentials can be verified!

I can’t believe you’re using dress sizes as a caste system and you think you’re not doing the magazines’ job for them, and your litmus test for where privilege begins and ends is WHO GETS TO BUY CLOTHES FROM H&M.

It’s not cut and fucking dry because thinness and thin privilege are not simple, absolute things and just pretending they are is how you get to have a political stance that is only about how mad you are that you are disregarded as a potential source of income by an industry that is wholly reliant on the oppression of people in worse circumstances than your mildly abrogated western consumerism!

tl;dr DON’T YOU TELL MY SISTER TO SHUT UP, YOU DICK.

[jerk nonsense redoubled]

shakethecobwebs:

If you’re not thin

and you’re not fat

then you’re probably an inbetweenie/of average body size

You’re appealing to pretend, subjective classes of body as though they have hard boundaries and fixed meaning.  You are also using the word “inbetweenie” which is humiliating to adults.  You know that you are working for the body police, right?

and you’re upset

because fat people

want their own space

????

No we don’t!  You don’t speak for us!  Your fake incredulity and putting words in people’s mouths and speaking as though you have the hotline to objective fat experience is so harmful!  It is really important that you recognize, accept and admit that you are speaking about and for yourself only, and not as a representative of the universal fat-bodied experience.

You can be apart of fat acceptance and body acceptance and body positivity without claiming safe spaces of fat people as your own.

What safe spaces?  You are responding things that were said only inside of your mind.

Yes, it’s confusing for inbetweenies because they are often left out of these conversations. BUT that doesn’t mean that you don’t have average-size privilege and that doesn’t mean that you have to be let into fat people’s spaces. 

You are using language like “inbetweenies” and “average-size” to disguise the rhetorical tactic whereby you have defined the privilege-bearing categories of body size to include every single person except for you.  It is not working as well as you think it is.

And feeling fat isn’t the same as being fat. It just isn’t. Even if you’re bigger than you used to be. Even if you’re not as small as some people you know. 

A size 10 person feeling fat isn’t the same as a size 28 person being fat. Because your mental status and struggles with dysmorphia aside, you are still of average size to society. They don’t look at you and think “they look like they feel fat.” But people look at me and immediately think “she is fat.”

This is sort of true but sort of dishonestly expressed, and then also sort of not true.  It’s not the case that the difficult interaction with society and one’s body happens only internally for people below a certain size and only externally (i.e. REAL oppression) for people above that size.  Not only is there no certain size at which the experiences are delineated, people DO treat “average bodies” (super problematic made up category) as fat bodies in general, and people above the imaginary certain size also ARE just FEELING fat a lot of the time - like you don’t empirically know that all people are immediately thinking “she is fat” when they look at you.  That is a presumption you feel justified making in part because you FEEL fat.

As for the other dude’s point - no, there’s not some magical bunsen burner that sorts people into classifications of thin or average sized or fat. But you’re the biggest person in your apartment? I’m usually the fattest person in a lecture hall of 150 people. Can you say the same?

This is the closest you come to admitting that every part of your interaction in this thread (inasmuch as any dysfractionated tumblr back-and-forth can be called a thread) has been actually about your experience, and not about the thin-bodied experience of privilege that you purported to define.  You are pulling rank and once again demonstrating that it’s a class of one.

I don’t need some magical scientific definition of thin to tell you that being the biggest person in a dance class (which, lets be honest, is usually a non-fat body space anyway) is completely different than being the biggest person in a space open to everyone/hundreds of people at a time. 

There’s no such thing as a “magical scientific definition.”  You are, in fact, USING a magical definition, in a place where only a scientific definition could have meaning, and that’s what is making your arguments wild and dishonest.

No-one who has disputed anything you wrote has denied thin privilege; at every stage, it has been healthily defended.  What is being disputed is your bad definition of it, and what you have defended since that was disputed has not been that definition, but the validity of your own fat experience, which…

What I feel like saying in the context of this heated exchange is “…which no-one cares about,” but that’s not true at all.  That would be a quick and rude way to indicate that it has nothing to do with the thing anyone but you is trying to talk about, but it’s not worth saying that way, because we do care.  This is not only important stuff to us, these experiences are to some extent shared by us and we are ALSO activists who live and breathe and are buffeted by the topic at hand.

I am the biggest person nearly everywhere I go, and I have been since I was a child.  You aren’t in a position to pull fat experience rank on me and tell me what’s not the same as being fat, or who is welcome in “fat safe spaces,” or any of the terms of definition that you are commandeering strictly for yourself.  This is a discourse, and we’re both contributing to it, and so are the tumblr users lyngay and boxcutterhaircut and sofarfromshameless and therodentqueen and holagordita and of course the millions of people doing so outside of this venue, and just because some people FEEL FAT enough to claim the right to throw around what JUST IS or JUST ISN’T the case doesn’t mean they get to hijack the whole movement and block out every other voice and define everyone else’s experience for them.

DO YOU.